Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Subscribe: RSS
The podcast episode features a conversation between UNB Tim and the creators of the film “All Man,” Jesse Finley-Reed and Brian Darling. They discuss the significance of the international mail catalogs and their impact on the gay community and society at large. The filmmakers explore the themes of masculinity, self-expression, and non-conformity through the lens of the underwear industry. They touch on the cultural and historical context of the catalogs, including the AIDS crisis and the changing ideals of masculinity. The conversation delves into the allure of international mail, the experiences of the models and customers, and the continued relevance of underwear as a form of personal expression.
They mention the unexpected aspects of the film, such as delving into the behind-the-scenes stories and the catalog’s cultural impact. They express their pride in creating a film that goes beyond expectations and resonates with viewers. The conversation touches on the nostalgia and uniqueness of International Male in a pre-internet era. They also highlight the personal stories shared by audience members and the emotional connection people have with the catalog. Bryan and Jesse emphasize the significance of holding a physical catalog and the enduring appeal of print media. They invite listeners to watch the film and support it through ratings, and they express their preference for leaving viewers wanting more rather than being disappointed. The conversation concludes with gratitude and a recommendation for everyone to watch the film.
Find more info about the film at their website
https://www.internationalmalemovie.com/
Follow me on all social media as: @unbtim
- www.twitter.com/unbtim
- www.instagram.com/unbtim
- unbtim@kinky.business on Mastadon
Support UNB
For on going support join our Patreon – www.patreon.com/unbblog
For one time support visit our support page – https://www.underwearnewsbriefs.com/about/support-unb/ You can donate by Ko-fi or Paypal
Read more at unbblog.com
Follow unb on Twitter and IG @UNBBlog
TRANSCRIPT
UNB Tim:
Hey everyone, welcome to another edition of the Reef Talk Podcast. We have two really cool people on today who have done something amazing. Uh, we have Jesse Finley-Reed and Brian Darling, who you may not know, did the all-man movie about international mail. Welcome guys.
Bryan:
Thank you.
Jesse:
Thank you. Thank
Bryan:
It’s
Jesse:
you
Bryan:
good
Jesse:
so
Bryan:
to
Jesse:
much
Bryan:
be
Jesse:
for
Bryan:
here.
Jesse:
having us.
Bryan:
We
UNB Tim:
It’s-
Bryan:
love talking about international mail and underwear.
UNB Tim:
Well, you’re on the right podcast.
Bryan:
Hahaha.
UNB Tim:
So we definitely, this is, we’re all about underwear. We talk everything underwear, masculinity, everything. You name it, we do it on this podcast. So
Jesse:
It’s Write Up
UNB Tim:
when
Jesse:
International
UNB Tim:
I saw the film,
Jesse:
Males, oh sorry, Write Up International Males Alley.
UNB Tim:
Exactly. And when I saw the movie coming out, I was like, I’ve got to get you on the podcast to talk. And I saw the movie this month and liked it a lot. And I was telling you before the show, I think you could have made an entire series about international mail. Cause there is so much to cover and so much to do about international mail, because it is so iconic that it left me wanting more when I’m the movie I’m like, I want to hear more of this and this and this and this and this, but
Bryan:
I know it goes by so quick in 80 minutes or 85 minutes. We, at one point we were, we talked about a series. I mean, there was all kinds of ideas
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
of stuff, you know?
UNB Tim:
It’s just crazy
Jesse:
Yeah.
UNB Tim:
because it’s so iconic in the gay world and in the straight world as you pointed out That it was a time before the internet before Everything and you got the catalogs in the mail and you got to see all this really interesting stuff that you couldn’t get anywhere else and It was it was just amazing back in the day. So our listeners who were younger who never got to experience it. I’m sorry, but it was amazing.
Jesse:
Well yeah, and it’s what makes
UNB Tim:
So,
Jesse:
the pre-internet
UNB Tim:
so.
Jesse:
world… Oh, sorry. I think there might be a delay with me,
UNB Tim:
Oh,
Jesse:
I’m
UNB Tim:
go ahead.
Jesse:
sorry. Is there?
UNB Tim:
Oh, you’re fine.
Jesse:
Okay.
UNB Tim:
I don’t see one, but it probably is. But we’ll get around
Jesse:
I think
UNB Tim:
it.
Jesse:
that that’s what’s so amazing about it because I was one of the little boys who got it in the mail or teenage teenagers got it in the mail and it was this sort of window into this world that I didn’t really see in the world around me where men were living these sort of fantastic lives and wearing boundary pushing clothing and it It felt both provocative and safe at the same time to look which I think as
UNB Tim:
guess.
Jesse:
a young queer person was really important, especially at that time. It was the eighties and, you know, it was the AIDS crisis and Reaganism and all of that. And here was this thing where none of that seemed to matter.
UNB Tim:
Yeah, that’s so what made you guys tackle international mail? What made you want to take on this subject?
Bryan:
It was a really, it was just complete happenstance. Jesse and I were working on another project at the time dealing with growing up during the age of AIDS. And while we were working on that project, he came across some magazines and I’ll let him tell that story to you specifically. But basically, you know, he brought these catalogs, magazines catalogs, yeah, to to me to show me. And I was really shocked when I saw them, just in the sense that, wow, I’ve never seen anything like this before, you know, in fashion, like in the sense of what you could, what you had access to, what you could buy and how the images were put together and how editorial it was, yet it was a catalog. I was like, wow, what is this? How have I never seen this? And what’s, you know, what’s the story behind this? And initially, you know, we were going to do a short film about how it, you know, how the affinity that gay men had for it and, you know, used to jerk off to it and what it meant to them. And, you know, like a fun short film for us to do while we were working on this other film, this larger film. And it very quickly, I mean, really very quickly became apparent that there was a much larger story here and a much deeper. story to explore and uncover. But it all started when Jesse was at work one day.
Jesse:
Yeah,
UNB Tim:
Nice.
Jesse:
and a colleague was moving on to another position and someone had jokingly given him these international mail catalogs and they were in his recycling bin. And I picked them up in his office and I held them close to my heart and I said, oh my god, these meant so much to me. It was funny
UNB Tim:
I’m sorry.
Jesse:
all these years later, seeing some of the issues that I recall receiving. and remembering the sequence of images, you know, again, this pre-internet world where you really held on to certain things that were valuable to you, where you could find, you know, not a word that I would use at the time, like representation that was somehow different
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
from what we saw everywhere else. And as Brian said, it was gonna be this funny little film until it became a story about so much more. And that really excited us both, because I think it’s great to take something often written off as like camp or saccharin or not so important and use it to really dive into some much deeper issues culturally. And I think that’s what works so beautifully about the film and its history. I mean, the catalog and its history, excuse me, is that
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
it… It overlaps with these trends, these movements, these cultural moments in our society, where we’re being pushed forward, being pulled back, it all depends, but it fits in very well.
UNB Tim:
Yes. Because the catalog itself was something amazing back in the day because coming out in the 80s, it was like, what is this? What? We have this? Oh my goodness. Where has this been? This is amazing. And I’ve told the story on the podcast many times. I had the international mail credit card back in the day
Jesse:
Thanks for watching.
UNB Tim:
with the $200 limit and
Bryan:
Yeah.
UNB Tim:
just thought I was just on top of the world, it’s like, you know what I can buy for $200? Oh my God, goodness. When I was in college, so it was like, Oh my God. So yes,
Jesse:
Glamorous,
UNB Tim:
it was.
Jesse:
glamorous. See, we’re
UNB Tim:
It
Jesse:
living
UNB Tim:
was
Jesse:
an international life at your college.
UNB Tim:
exactly that $200
Bryan:
Hahaha
UNB Tim:
got me there. I was like, yes. Uh, so yeah.
Bryan:
When we found out about the credit card, I remember like, wow, what didn’t they have? It was
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
like, wow, very smart. I think at one point in time, we were told also they had like a magazine caddy that they
UNB Tim:
Oh,
Bryan:
had made
UNB Tim:
wow.
Bryan:
for it
Jesse:
Yes,
Bryan:
as well
Jesse:
I’ve actually
Bryan:
that
Jesse:
seen
Bryan:
you could
Jesse:
it.
Bryan:
put somewhere for your international mail.
UNB Tim:
Oh wow, wow.
Jesse:
Yes, it’s in
UNB Tim:
I
Jesse:
loose
UNB Tim:
remember
Jesse:
site.
UNB Tim:
I used to have him for…
Jesse:
It’s a clear loose site
Bryan:
Yeah.
Jesse:
catalog holder that I saw at Gloria Tomita’s house, actually.
Bryan:
I say you should put an eBay alert on that one for that. That’s a good collector’s item to have.
UNB Tim:
I was supposed to say that is something I did not even know they did. It’s just, oh my goodness, that’s crazy. But yeah, because people used to display them when you would meet people and go over to friends’ houses, they’d be on the coffee table as, look, I get international mail, I get under gear. Here it is. So
Jesse:
Well,
UNB Tim:
it
Jesse:
yeah.
UNB Tim:
wasn’t just something you just like. Oh, go
Jesse:
Oh,
UNB Tim:
ahead.
Jesse:
and it’s, no, I’m sorry. I think there’s a delay with me, but yeah, it’s something coded that you could have out on the copy table. You could have that and it would be an indication of perhaps your taste in clothing or perhaps your taste in more than clothing sort
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Jesse:
of on display.
UNB Tim:
Yes, very much so. It was just crazy. And one part I really liked about the movie was you had the phone salespeople because I tell people before you could either fill out the order form in it and mail it in or you could call an order and people are just blown away especially younger that you had to actually call someone and talk to someone. about this and to hear one of the people who did it, it was just so fun and so good to hear. Yes, I want the whatever jockstrap and this and da da. But yeah, I love that part because it brings back memories of me calling up so many times.
Bryan:
Did you have, do you remember any of your conversations with any of the phone salespeople?
UNB Tim:
Not a lot.
Bryan:
So you weren’t one of those flirty, flirty callers.
UNB Tim:
No, I was re I was 19 18 19 20. So I was just like, it was already calling up about all the fun stuff I wanted to order and it was just like, Oh my goodness. So it
Bryan:
Because
UNB Tim:
was
Bryan:
I asked to because not just for the flirty parts, that’s always fun, but something that didn’t make it in the film was Dion, the phone sales
UNB Tim:
I love you.
Bryan:
operator who’s in the film, when we did our interview, he brought with him some index cards to show us that he had kept that were customer cards. They would keep notes on their customers, like lives in Chicago, banker, traveled so and such, likes this item or that item. They would make notes about, so when they called, they could be reminded, refreshed and have conversations. They were always trying to have like sort of real conversations with people and of interest and talk about, things going on in life at the time. So I was just curious if you experienced any of that, just because it’s such a neat thing to see and I wish we could have gotten it in the film, but yeah, there was that. And then also people who bought from the store or bought from the catalog would also send in photos.
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
This is something we weren’t able to put into the film and… They would send photos of themselves, like Polaroids or photo prints made of them in underwear with ideas of an underwear that they could
UNB Tim:
Oh,
Bryan:
come
UNB Tim:
man.
Bryan:
out with or how they would be a great model. Or certain phone operators also would have relationships with some of these guys as well.
UNB Tim:
Yeah, that’s one thing that really I was not expecting in the film since I came of age during that time as we were talking about the people who had the customers and they all started dying with the AIDS in the 80s. And I’m just like, Oh, I remember that so vividly growing up in that time and coming out that I’m like, yeah. And I think it shocked. I know some people who saw it and were like, what? I’m like, yeah, you don’t remember the AIDS crisis. And, you know, we didn’t have internet, so you wouldn’t find out. So and so passed away like. months beforehand and I was like yeah it struck gay businesses too so yeah
Bryan:
Definitely.
UNB Tim:
So that was good to see in there too. It was like, teaching people about history. I was like very happy. So what was one of you guys favorite things about making the movie that you either learned or happened or discovered about international male while you were making.
Jesse:
I think that the most shocking thing that I discovered, because I of course approach this as a gay kid who had gotten it, I think when we learned about the actual demographics of people who were buying the clothes, it was pretty surprising to me that, it totally makes sense in retrospect because the common thing that gay men say is like, oh, I never bought anything, but I kept getting it. you know, the fact that women, you know, desired these clothes for the men in their lives and sort of acted on that. And a lot of men desired those clothes to act on it. That was pretty surprising because here I had thought that this was a special thing just for me. Like this was like the
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
special catalog made for young gay boys like me. And I think the other thing that happened really early on, you know, when it became a much larger film, was feeling welcomed into this family of people who all
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
spoke about how much they cared about this job and family, you know, this chosen family, if you will, way before we had the phrase chosen family, and how much it sort of supported them and built them up. And Often people say it was like the best job they ever had. And that was for
UNB Tim:
Nice.
Jesse:
not just the models or not just the sales staff. It was sort of like everyone felt that way. So we felt, I felt very shepherded into this family by everyone.
UNB Tim:
Nice. Yeah, that came through on the screen that they felt like a family and they were very close to each other while working there and probably many of them kept in touch afterwards. But yeah, that came through in the film. So that was awesome.
Bryan:
Yeah, I think one of the interesting things for me during the process was talking to the models and kind of getting an understanding of like, why did they go into modeling?
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
And also, when did they become sort of aware of their bodies and worked on their bodies and why did they do that? And again, it was something that we couldn’t get all this into the film fully. Because initially when we were starting to make the film, we were really, we were really wanting to explore heavily, you know, masculinity. What is masculinity?
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
How do men find masculinity? You know, and how does sort of the definition and expression of masculinity change, you know, over, over time for, for these men? And And one of the interesting things was that a lot of the models were from small towns.
UNB Tim:
Thank you.
Bryan:
And their experience of becoming a model opened up their entire world perspective. They may have come from small towns that if you were gay, you were a fag, or it was
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
a very obviously negative thing that no one wanted to be. And And of course, then it was like also a sickness and all these various things. So what was interesting is by them becoming models and going into the modeling world and being exposed to so many different people, a lot of gay men are in the fashion industry and then also traveling the world. And it really opened up their minds and their perspectives and their realities as they were becoming, you know, were young adults in their early 20s. I thought that was really interesting to see and to hear. For them, modeling oftentimes was an escape, a way to escape the town and the life that they were having in their adolescence and young adult lives, a way to escape that and go on to something. they realized that the attention they got from
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
having a body, and seeing attention that, basically seeing attention that other men were receiving for having that muscle built body, which at the time in the 80s, in late 70s and 80s, this was like a new thing coming in. Prior to that, it was more about being skinny, but you just always had the body building. world, but it was more obscure, if that makes sense.
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
So what’s interesting is when they noticed that there was a tension that could be gotten from having a body, they focused on developing their bodies in a way of becoming the muscular athletic way in which we see them in the catalog. And then also, That’s not to take away the fact that they weren’t athletes. A lot of these models coming in the 80s were actual athletes that were these
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
bodies because the modeling industry at the time, guys with muscles was not the look in fashion.
UNB Tim:
guest.
Bryan:
And it was very hard for, they were called body models who mostly did like sportswear and gym wear kind of things. So that all really changed in the mid 80s. And so I just found that aspect of it really interesting because in a certain way, making this film, whenever you’re a documentary filmmaker, hopefully, you’re learning as well. Like you’re uncovering something
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
about not only the topic, but something about yourself. And hopefully that’s also reflected in the film. And so for me, it’s like, yeah, what is masculinity? These days we talk about it being toxic, you know. but how do we get our masculinity? How do we define it? How does it change? And what are good role models of masculinity? And that was
UNB Tim:
Okay.
Bryan:
what I found really fascinating and interesting and kind of thinking also about myself and my own identity as that related.
UNB Tim:
Nice. Yeah, that’s the film carries over is the underwear industry as a total today because Like you were saying Jesse you were surprised that the makeup of the customers even today we have Straight guys who love underwear coming out more bisexual guys gay guys, so it’s not just Gay guys doing underwear and that’s one reason our podcast has done so well as we talk to all these different ones and then we talk about what is masculinity is like wearing a thong doesn’t make you any less masculine than not wearing one so it’s these conversations are still going on today that you discovered from the 80s and on so that’s kind of cool that they’re still in some ways cool but other ways just like you think we’d be past the masculinity thing but that’s always a thing
Jesse:
Well,
UNB Tim:
but yeah
Jesse:
I think the masculinity thing, I just wanted to say though, before I go into that, is that I think that underwear fits really well into this idea of safe expression because it’s something that you have
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
underneath your clothes, your outer clothes, so you can really be taking a risk with underwear. I think that’s why, you know, just… guessing because you know, of course data isn’t the same from back then as we have now But I think that’s what made
UNB Tim:
Yeah.
Jesse:
the underwear so popular was like, oh I can wear this like Fandoshi Japanese wrap under my three-piece suit and get away with it and
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
there’s something like a really erotic about that I think the film Really chronicles this sort of Masculinity that’s taking place And if you look at the very early catalogs from the 70s, you see, I’d say, a much less muscular, less athletic guy. And as the catalog evolved and they saw what sold, it was this really brilliant marketing strategy of taking these sort of
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
archetypes of masculinity, like the Brian Bazzini’s or David Knight’s, and putting them in this boundary pushing clothes. because it’s in a way made it safe for viewers. I could
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Jesse:
project my erotic desire on it. A young trendy guy wanting to look hip and cool could say I wanna dress like Don Johnson or their wife or partner, female partner could say, I want them to look like Fabio and here’s a catalog for it. I think where the film ends is something both Brian and I were really excited by about like sort of ending it in the TikTok world where everyone
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
can sort of represent themselves. And I think as far as we’ve come, I think the problem, or I think the complication of masculinity is we still eroticize as a culture, broadly speaking, a very specific kind of masculinity.
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Jesse:
And I think still, that men who choose, you know, there’s a lot of athletes at the very, very end of the film wearing this sort of outrageous clothes, but they sort of have this privileged body already. And what does it mean for us as a culture? And I think the beautiful thing about these various movements that we’re in or coming out of or dealing with, like the Women’s Movement, the Black Lives Matter, Trans Lives Matter, is like, it’s an opportunity to sort of be critical of masculinity. It’s also a question to Brian’s point of like, what does that masculinity look like now? Like,
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Jesse:
what, what is it? Because obviously capitalism responds to what people want. If no one desired these erotic action figure movies, they wouldn’t make them. But instead we desire those things, so we make more of them, and the actors that are hired for them have nutritionists and go to the gym seven days a week and, you know, sculpt this body. But yeah, that’s the complication of now that I throw it out to the world to try to help figure out, you know, what is non-toxic masculinity?
UNB Tim:
That’s a
Bryan:
Well,
UNB Tim:
good question.
Bryan:
the thing to add to this too is, you know, when you’re, as Jesse’s alluding to with like movies and such and these superhero movies and like Kumail Nanjiani is a great example of, you know, from nerd to superhero.
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
And I think also would think to understand it’s a global situation. It’s not just in the United States. of media and representation are not meant just for the United States, right? So they’re a basic sort of appealing level or something that is now people around the globe are appealing. And you can see it in the expression that young people in different countries take on to have that very like strong athletic superhero look. But something to it that I think is important that doesn’t get talked as much about You know, we use words like with underwear, we use words like, you know, erotic to feel erotic or is
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
erotic. And, and what happens is we have this tendency to, to basically interchange sexuality with, with masculinity.
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
Like they’re, they’re so intertwined in this way that I think oftentimes when people are talking about masculinity. in my opinion, oftentimes they’re talking about sexuality. They are connected, but we’re talking about male sexuality. Whenever you say male sexuality, most people think of sexual orientation.
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Bryan:
This is a problem because to me, and something I said while we were making this film is that this is a film that explores masculinity and male sexuality. Male sexuality has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It’s a similar thing to where in the transgender world, a lot of people in discussing these things are taking gender and sexuality and looking at that as the same kind of thing. And I think when we talk about masculinity, you know, with men, I think it’s important to frame it in that way and to frame it in sort of a different way, which is, you know, what we’re saying is, if you wear this underwear, and it is erotic or looks erotic, then that can’t be masculine. That’s
UNB Tim:
Yeah.
Bryan:
how I interpret that. And I find that so interesting because there’s also a lot of men who are like, screw that, they don’t have any problems with it. Straight men,
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
you know, totally, they’ve taken a page from gay men and have seen the kind of attention and that has brought and they want that too. And so they will express themselves in an erotic way. Because to me, men expressing their sexuality, their erotic, their eroticness, whatever you wanna call it, is just a form of expression and a powerful thing that to me doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with whether a person is masculine or not.
UNB Tim:
Yes. Because I think you pointed out so well in the film is guys who looked, you know, quote unquote masculine are wearing these clothes and being feeling sexual or being sexualized, basically, because our society goes, you can sexualize women all you want to, but you can’t sexualize a man. No,
Bryan:
Well, it’s
UNB Tim:
no,
Bryan:
because
UNB Tim:
no.
Bryan:
it’s men who are doing this
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Bryan:
and men who are looking at it.
UNB Tim:
Exactly.
Jesse:
Well, and it’s also a threat to masculinity itself, because masculinity only sort of survives by belittling or labeling other things other.
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Jesse:
I think that that’s how masculinity sort of maintains itself. It’s really fascinating. I don’t feel I can speak about it with any sort of confidence, but. There’s a whole section of academic research that uses this idea of it’s called the masculine box and about the sort of limitations and privileges that are carried with sort of masculine self-expression and how it sort of, anything that doesn’t sort of support masculinity is seen as other or weak or effeminate or any other
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Jesse:
whole host of other words. But it’s very limiting. at the same time. And I
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
think that international mail is playing with the bounds of this. I think we as a culture
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Jesse:
are playing with bounds of this. I think from RuPaul to academic Judith Butler, we’re really conscious that all these sort of accoutrements we wear, these clothes, it’s all a form of drag to borrow
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
of RuPaulism. which actually was coined by someone else, but I can’t cite that person, unfortunately.
UNB Tim:
Bye.
Jesse:
But this idea that we put on these clothes and we become something, we become Harrison Ford, we become Indiana Jones, we become Fabio. I mean, that’s so American, our imagination
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
of sort of projecting ourselves into these clothes and into these. sort of lifestyles. Like, it’s so wonderful when you look back at the 80s and you find an old nightclub footage and everyone’s
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Jesse:
sort of aspiring to be this dynasty-like character, so to speak, you know? And it’s about, it’s very American to me in a really wonderful way that we’re so informed by the world we see represented around us.
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Bryan:
I think the catalog, sorry, I just want to add one thing to this because it’s such an interesting conversation. I think when it comes to the catalog and what we’re really kind of talking about here, we’re talking about nonconformity, right? Because
UNB Tim:
in there.
Bryan:
if you think about it, when we’re talking about masculinity, I mean, masculinity technically can be kind of anything,
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Bryan:
but when we speak of it, we’re still using the way in which we assume is sort of this traditional. conservative standard type of masculinity that’s been around for a long time. But really what all this is, is about conformity. And in turn it’s like, okay, if you look this way, be this way, it’s all a way to conform and find an easy way to get through the society and to not stand out. And if anything, international male was really trying to push this idea that you don’t have to conform. That you… you don’t need to be like everybody else. And here’s a way that you can express yourselves in varying ways and to stand out. And I think that’s what makes it so awesome. I think that’s why it still stands the test of time. No matter what it is, we still, conformity probably will always be there in some fashion, but. I think that’s why it still lands today and people are amazed by it because it’s just so expressive and non-conformist.
UNB Tim:
Yes. And I think with underwear, like you said, that guys can wear whatever they want to under their suit. It gives them a little more expression of who they want to be. And they maybe cannot wear the clothes they want to wear, do things. They’re in a small town, but you could wear pink underwear. You could wear something crazy and no one knows. So it gives you a little bit of expression. And we’ve talked to many of our listeners and readers that it gives them a little bit more confidence wearing something like, you know, a pink jock under a blue power suit when they give a presentation. So I think that plays a part into why underwear is so important to people, gay, straight, bi, trans, whatever. It adds something to your personality that you sometimes can’t show in public. So I think that’s one of the… the biggest bonuses of international mail in general too.
Bryan:
probably why their underwear section was the largest and best selling
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Bryan:
section of the catalog.
UNB Tim:
That was my gateway drug into everything. Because it was like, oh my goodness. I must have everything. I want all this page. Yes. Every color.
Bryan:
Yeah, they have some amazing underwear. I have to say, like, it’s just like, wow, that’s, yeah.
UNB Tim:
I still have some that
Jesse:
Wow.
UNB Tim:
I can still wear. And I found one of the latest collect, well, one of the, right before they closed, probably in the early 2010s, some that are unopened. And I’m like, oh no, this is like a museum piece now. Cause I can’t
Bryan:
Hahaha!
UNB Tim:
get rid of
Jesse:
That’s great to know
UNB Tim:
this.
Jesse:
that you have these things because sometimes we get asked about doing an extension and I’m like, well, so much of it was spandex, so it didn’t really last. But,
UNB Tim:
Oh yes,
Jesse:
but, but
UNB Tim:
I
Jesse:
yeah,
UNB Tim:
have
Jesse:
that’s
UNB Tim:
to find them.
Jesse:
Those are collectible.
UNB Tim:
And I have an international… No, not international, undergear beach ball somewhere around here. So,
Bryan:
Yeah,
UNB Tim:
yes.
Bryan:
we were able to handle the original Jock Sock.
UNB Tim:
Oh wow.
Bryan:
There’s one, Gloria has the original sample that was used. And it’s in extremely excellent condition, surprisingly enough. And it’s actually when you watch the film, there’s a section where they talk about the Jock Sock and show
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
it on this sort of mannequin model. That’s the actual real jock-sock we slipped onto a mannequin
Jesse:
Yeah, the prototype.
Bryan:
to do it. So there’s, it’s impossible to find. We’ve never seen one. I have, I have, uh, you know, eBay alerts,
UNB Tim:
I owned,
Bryan:
but
UNB Tim:
I’m gonna have to dig through my drawers, through everything, because I had several of them, and I’m gonna have to see if I can find one now.
Jesse:
That’s
UNB Tim:
I have
Jesse:
so
UNB Tim:
some stuff
Jesse:
good.
UNB Tim:
in storage that I didn’t wanna get rid of, because
Bryan:
Hehehe
UNB Tim:
as we get older, we grow horizontally in that dollar. And there’s just certain pairs that I didn’t wanna give away, and I knew that’s gonna be in something. So you’re gonna have me hitting on my… now to find the Jocsoc, because I had two or three of them. So
Bryan:
Okay.
UNB Tim:
if I find
Jesse:
Yeah,
UNB Tim:
them, I will…
Jesse:
if you ever find yourself needing to get rid of them, feel free to mail them
Bryan:
Ah!
Jesse:
to me, and
UNB Tim:
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Jesse:
I will
Bryan:
Hehehehehehehehe
Jesse:
add them to my international mail archive of things.
UNB Tim:
It’s crazy. I do have one question for you if you found this out, because this has been just like gnawing at me since they closed. Do you know if they even created an archive of all the old catalogs? Anyone?
Jesse:
They did not, to our knowledge,
Bryan:
I mean, we
Jesse:
they
Bryan:
don’t
Jesse:
have,
Bryan:
know.
Jesse:
we don’t know, but
Bryan:
We, yeah, I mean.
UNB Tim:
Ah, because that’s.
Jesse:
The people who own it aren’t very forthcoming. However, I will say that archives have collected all the catalogs.
Bryan:
The one
Jesse:
The other
Bryan:
archive has a collection
UNB Tim:
Okay, good.
Jesse:
one archive in
Bryan:
in LA.
Jesse:
Los Angeles at USC
UNB Tim:
Awesome.
Jesse:
has one full collection. We have a lot of them now, not an exhaustive collection. There’s also… a website called Tim in Vermont, which was a really fantastic resource. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with it,
UNB Tim:
Uh-uh.
Jesse:
but he has cat
Bryan:
You
Jesse:
or
Bryan:
will be
Jesse:
they,
Bryan:
now.
Jesse:
they have catalog. I’m not sure what they, what, how big of an enterprise it is, but they have cataloged everything from international mail and under gear to physique pictorial to old, you know, of physique films. And they’re all low resolution scans, which is, you know, I wish they were higher res, but
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
that site ended up becoming so helpful for us in terms
Bryan:
we
Jesse:
of
Bryan:
were downloading the entire site.
Jesse:
Yeah, like
Bryan:
At
Jesse:
place.
Bryan:
a
UNB Tim:
Hahaha.
Bryan:
certain point, we had to call him because we were just literally downloading everything they had.
Jesse:
Yeah, I had a
UNB Tim:
That’s awesome.
Jesse:
really lovely conversation with him about it. I was like, I know you said the limit of the downloads, but, and I just told him the whole story and he was like, oh no, you can download it all, it’s fine. But,
UNB Tim:
Nice.
Jesse:
yeah.
UNB Tim:
Yeah, because that’s something I think should live on, because there’s so many people coming up now who don’t know about it or haven’t seen it, and they see snippets. So it would be cool if one of them did a higher resolution scan and put it online. But that’s just me
Bryan:
Yeah, I think
UNB Tim:
being
Bryan:
we,
UNB Tim:
nostalgic.
Bryan:
well, you know, archives, archives don’t have the resources. That’s the one
UNB Tim:
true.
Bryan:
thing. Cause we, we were trying to like, you know, we, we need to fill out some of our, our stuff with, with some others. And, uh, but you know, for them, it’s like, I forget how much, was it like a dollar a scan or was it more than that? Jess.
Jesse:
Oh no, yeah, it was much higher than that for,
Bryan:
Okay, yeah.
Jesse:
like a proper archivist to make a scan for.
Bryan:
Yeah, because they won’t let you do
UNB Tim:
Ugh.
Bryan:
it. It has to be their staff and it takes a long time. It takes time. It’s very
UNB Tim:
Yeah.
Bryan:
expensive. So it was better for us to just buy up as many of these catalogs as we could. And I was watching while we were making the movie, I was watching the prices of these things on eBay go up,
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
the early ones from the 70s or ones. And I was watching them disappear more. like over the
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Bryan:
course of a couple of years, there used to be quite a bit. And then by the end, it was like one here, one there instead of these collections. We got several of them, including the very first one. But
Jesse:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
that’s the hardest. Those were, and luckily they were in really good condition, the ones that we got. Other ones that we got were given to us on loan from staff, which One of the things that was wonderful about that is, you know, the catalogs are one thing, and those are in some ways much more accessible. The stuff that nobody had access to, and that’s more of an issue for preservation, is all of the actual assets, like the materials in which they used to make the catalog. So
UNB Tim:
Oh, yeah.
Bryan:
we were given like layout page, like they would make these layouts using Polaroids and sketches of like fake pages. to kind of decide their layout and how they would shoot the clothing and lay out the catalog. And then also a lot of the art directors kept their film from the shoots.
UNB Tim:
Oh wow.
Bryan:
So we had access to a lot of large medium, what are called medium format, chromes that were all original camera stuff that we scanned very high resolution. And there was much more stuff that we got. And I think a lot of snapshots, various things. And I think one thing going forward, I hope is that eventually we can make sure that these materials that all these people have will eventually go into an archive somewhere to preserve the history of the catalog
UNB Tim:
awesome.
Bryan:
in general. But those were the really fun things to get a look at, was this inside world. when we got a videotape of the commercials they made in the 90s.
UNB Tim:
Oh.
Bryan:
And it was like, wow, like this commercial never aired, but it’s
UNB Tim:
Uh
Bryan:
so
UNB Tim:
huh.
Bryan:
rad, you know? Or we saw the gay catalog they put out. They did two issues of an actual gay catalog that ended up being kind of a disaster for them because it was too ahead of its time. They didn’t know who was gay.
UNB Tim:
That’s
Bryan:
So
UNB Tim:
true.
Bryan:
they had to just guess. and sent
UNB Tim:
Oh
Bryan:
this
UNB Tim:
wow.
Bryan:
catalog out to people. And it would, you know, it’s going to addresses and people don’t know who they’re going to. And that really, they got a
UNB Tim:
Bye.
Bryan:
lot of like people calling like, how dare you send this to me or what are you doing? Or, you know, pure, yeah, so. But it was great because it literally would be like pride related things. And the, you know, it was the clothing and the language in the copy, everything was very out. and proud.
UNB Tim:
Well, yeah, that was definitely ahead of its time. That was, uh, wow. Wow.
Bryan:
Do you remember the
UNB Tim:
I
Bryan:
name
UNB Tim:
do
Bryan:
of
UNB Tim:
this.
Bryan:
that catalog, Jess?
Jesse:
It was called him.
UNB Tim:
I vaguely remember that. Vaguely
Jesse:
You might
UNB Tim:
remember.
Jesse:
have been a lucky few who got it.
Bryan:
I’m out.
UNB Tim:
I don’t think I got it, but I remember hearing about it.
Jesse:
Yeah,
UNB Tim:
I
Jesse:
like
UNB Tim:
don’t remember.
Jesse:
it was funny. It was the opposite extreme. It’s like on the cover, there was like a pink triangle over the eye. You know, there was like rainbow flags. There was like, you know, for the catalog, which had always sort of skirted sexual
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Jesse:
orientation, it was full-throated, let’s just say. And seems appropriate. It was full-throated. And I mean, the clothes were like, it was like what you’re imagining, but taken to another extreme. But yeah, I think that was actually another really fucking fascinating thing that happened, which was like, you know, here’s all this talk, they’re labeled a gay catalog, they try to straighten it out, they try to do all these things, and then they make a gay catalog? like specifically a gay catalog, and it goes terribly.
UNB Tim:
Miracle-y.
Jesse:
It goes horribly. And it’s like, that’s the sort of irony of all of this.
Bryan:
Yeah, the catalog itself. So we discovered this catalog when we interviewed. Oh, my brain just went dead. Jess,
Jesse:
What, him?
Bryan:
is it Peter?
Jesse:
Oh, Peter. Peter
Bryan:
Peter,
Jesse:
Carroll.
Bryan:
what was Peter, Peter Carroll, thank you. Peter Carroll, who was creative director during his time, he was the one that created this magazine, this catalog. And when you look at it, I wish we could show it to you, but I don’t know, but its design was so good. And the images were amazing. They were so powerful and so strong. And the clothing these guys were wearing was like, wow. that is like someone ready to go to a pride party and like leather and straps. And I mean, it was just really impressive. It was so, so that 90s look and feel that, that just, I don’t know, I found it awesome. And it was very sad that it not, but it was, it was, they put a lot of work into it. It wasn’t just like, you know, a little catalog. They put a… lot of work and a lot of resources went into making.
UNB Tim:
nice yeah because they always did amazing stuff amazing catalogs so i figured that would be just as amazing but yeah so i have to ask that you’ve been showing up until recently the film at uh film festivals and around the country uh and it just came out on a video or download What has been some of the things you’ve been hearing from people after they see the movie? What are some of the more memorable things people have said to you guys after viewing it?
Jesse:
Well, I think that something that I’m really excited about and was exciting in making the film as we were sort of shepherding the story, was it becomes a film about a lot more than what people
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
are expecting it to be. And that makes me really happy. Everything is created in a context. And I think sort of… bringing your viewers along to sort of seeing how this is operating in the world and what they’re up against, et cetera. I think that it’s very humanizing. I think it’s what we’re attracted to generally speaking as human beings is like these stories. I think I was worried at times, I can remember thinking like, ah, will people be disappointed it’s not sexy enough or something.
Bryan:
Hehehe
Jesse:
But I think I’m really proud of it. I don’t think I’m answering your question very well.
UNB Tim:
It’s well, it’s there’s so much to cover in this topic that because when I when I saw it, I was expecting one thing I was expecting
Jesse:
Yeah.
UNB Tim:
the sexy I was expecting, you know all that but when I watched it, I was like Oh You gave me something. I didn’t know I wanted basically Because you saw more the behind the scenes you saw more of the people who made it And it’s like a family So it was really cool And I’m like, okay, I did not know I needed this movie, but I’m glad I have this movie now. Cause when
Bryan:
Well,
UNB Tim:
I stopped
Bryan:
I don’t
UNB Tim:
watching
Bryan:
know, go ahead.
UNB Tim:
it, I was like, okay. That wasn’t what I expected. Let’s think. Cause it got me thinking and I’m like, oh, okay. And that’s when I’m like, I’ve got to watch it again and again and again. So,
Jesse:
I’m going to go to bed.
UNB Tim:
so yeah.
Bryan:
I mean, that was the hope. I mean, that was the whole point of what we were doing in that way. I mean, it was the same thing for us, you know? It starts out as one idea, one premise, which is this fun catalog that gay men connected
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
to and had an affinity for and loved the clothing and loved to jerk off to it. And then all of a sudden, wow, there’s so much more to it than just that and how it influenced and affected. and was influenced by what was happening in the culture at the time.
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
Also the thing is, I think when, what’s been great about people watching the film, it is that, it is that, actually when you said, you know, you weren’t, you were like, oh wow, there’s all this stuff I didn’t expect. The staff were the same way, all the people who had worked for it, when they saw it. and they were also surprised. As a matter of fact, I remember several of them talking to each other about the interview experience and that it wasn’t what they were expecting at all. They were expecting that we would want to talk about, I don’t know, underwear, international mail and like gossip stories or just even didn’t know. And from the models to everybody was like, oh, they asked me all this. Like it just wasn’t what they were expecting. And I think that’s the whole point of it, right? Like for us, it was that same thing, this catalog that was written off, that was always trying to fight for legitimacy in the fashion space and as a brand. And it’s still the same thing, even within the people who bought from it, or at least had an affinity for it. I think that, and the other thing that’s just been great, is going to the various screenings over the last year. We released pretty much a year ago at
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
Tribeca and did film festivals up until a couple of months ago. And now with the theatrical release and the streaming releases, the thing that’s always great is hearing everyone’s story from the personal stories that people have as to what it meant to them and what role it played in their lives. because when you’re making these films, you’re not making them for yourself. Or
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Bryan:
you’re not making them for a committee of awards jurists. You’re making this for people to connect with and to take something from and to feel like something that they were thinking maybe gets expressed or explored in a way that they weren’t thinking. It becomes…
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Bryan:
something for them to have.
UNB Tim:
Yes.
Bryan:
And that’s been, that’s, I mean, that’s the best part. That’s the best thing you can hope for when you make a film in general.
UNB Tim:
Yes, it is. Because it kind of makes me sad there’s not an international male for the current generation. That this is just happened then and ended because the day when they close, I know they were closing, I swear I almost cried that day. I was like, no, no. So it’s, and explaining it to certain, some of the younger listeners and readers we have is kind of like, okay, this is no internet. This is… totally different and they just don’t get it. So, but it just makes me sad they don’t have something similar, but that’s
Jesse:
Well,
UNB Tim:
the world we live in with the internet.
Jesse:
and I think that connects back to something I said really early on, which is why it’s so special to us, because it was special. And
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
I mean, hopefully this film, to your point of feeling sad for them, I mean, I think that we as a culture always are moving hopefully forward. I know that’s debatable at times, depending on what state you live in.
UNB Tim:
True.
Jesse:
But this idea that there are whole, our world was a analog world. It was a, like things had an end. You could read the newspaper cover to cover and that was the newspaper for that day. And we now live in a world where information is just flowing by us, literally in the palm of our hands, second
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
after second and I think the way that young people see the world is a totally different way. I think that I’m psyched that I’m a Gen Xer because I get to have both. I get to have both the analog and digital world.
UNB Tim:
Exactly.
Jesse:
But I will say this, I was having a conversation recently with some people who came to a screening here in Los Angeles. And they were saying, you know, it’s something so special about holding the catalog in my hands and looking
UNB Tim:
Mm-hmm.
Jesse:
at it. And these were 20 somethings. And I was like, I was really like looking at it and there was nothing interrupting me, they were saying. And I was like, yeah,
UNB Tim:
Nice.
Jesse:
it was, it’s something really special. And they were saying, yeah, that’s why I buy magazines still, or it’s why I do this still is because, you know, the dominant force in our world is of course digital.
UNB Tim:
Yeah, very, that’s cool though, that they got the catalog. Awesome, awesome.
Jesse:
Yeah, I was really touched by them. One of them took it from their father. That’s
UNB Tim:
Oh wow.
Jesse:
where he’s like, my dad still has them. So I took one. It was hilarious.
UNB Tim:
Wow. I wish I still had mine, but oh well. But I guess we’ll wrap it up there. I could talk probably a couple hours with you guys if I keep going, but thank you. A, thank you for making the movie. It was well worth the wait when I got to see it. I was very happy. I know you guys are, it’s coming out on DVD soon as well. You can get it on many of the… digital services to buy. So you can go watch it now. You can watch it tonight after listening to this.
Bryan:
Yes, watch it and give it a four star or five star rating on Apple or wherever else that helps keep the movie up there and people seeing it.
UNB Tim:
I’ve gotta do that, I haven’t done that. Thank you for reminding me about that. I’m gonna go do that, because I bought it on Apple. Yay.
Bryan:
Oh yeah, all those ratings really do affect visibility for sure.
UNB Tim:
So thank you both for coming on the podcast today. It was a pleasure and so much fun. Everyone go watch the movie, I highly recommend it. Everyone in this podcast who listens, you’re in the demographic to watch this. So we have no excuses for why you cannot watch this. So go watch
Jesse:
Mm-hmm.
UNB Tim:
it,
Bryan:
Hehehe…
UNB Tim:
people. You will not be disappointed, but you will probably be like me, wanting more and more and more after you watch the movie, because there’s so much. you wish they went into but you know there’s only so much time you can put into a movie so it’s still amazing even without the things I wish to win in there but I guess it’s a good thing wanting more when you leave
Bryan:
I was always going to say I’d rather want more than be like, oh, when is
UNB Tim:
Oh,
Bryan:
this
UNB Tim:
that’s
Bryan:
ending?
UNB Tim:
it? Or that was
Bryan:
Yes.
UNB Tim:
it? That’s
Bryan:
Yes,
UNB Tim:
all they did?
Bryan:
totally. Yes.
UNB Tim:
Awesome. But yeah, go watch people. You will not be disappointed. So thank you everyone. We’ll have another podcast soon. Bye everyone.
Jesse:
Thank
Bryan:
Bye.
Jesse:
you.
